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Involuntary Glottal Support?
December 22, 2014
2:59 pm
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DeffStarr
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Is it possible to involuntary support with the throat whilst "supporting"?

As in, you have the support "locked down" but you're actually supporting from the throat.

I don't know a better way to describe it.

Not in a sense that the neck/throat is tensed up and you feel it there just passively.

During a lesson with Phil, I found it easier to support and produced a supported tone whilst squatting and pushing on the knees with my hands, how you would if you were out of breath and hunched over.

I do find that at times I'm lazy with my support and don't engage it as much as I should and produce very thin tones that become shrill as I get higher. There is also times when i feel the back of my neck tighten as I go higher to compensate.

Should it feel like a down and out motion or in and up?

December 23, 2014
2:25 am
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Phil Moufarrege
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haha you need to get out of your head buddy! Your problem is you keep stopping yourself saying "no!" every 2 seconds. You stop yourself and don't give it a chance to warm up. Every lesson I prove it to you. I make you just go through the scale all rough and by the time you come back down it's smooth and isn't tight. Go through it. Laugh You know what support is and what it feels like. you aready know what it feels like when it's right so get to work broCool
Play back that first hour of our last lesson where I warmed you up, and go through it. you will be fine.

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December 23, 2014
3:55 am
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OwenKorzec
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DeffStarr said

Is it possible to involuntary support with the throat whilst "supporting"?

As in, you have the support "locked down" but you're actually supporting from the throat.

I don't know a better way to describe it.

Not in a sense that the neck/throat is tensed up and you feel it there just passively.

During a lesson with Phil, I found it easier to support and produced a supported tone whilst squatting and pushing on the knees with my hands, how you would if you were out of breath and hunched over.

I do find that at times I'm lazy with my support and don't engage it as much as I should and produce very thin tones that become shrill as I get higher. There is also times when i feel the back of my neck tighten as I go higher to compensate.

Should it feel like a down and out motion or in and up?

First question: Yes but it is not the desired end result, it is a step of the process to accept. That dual support kind of thing is a transitory phase some students might go through while they're learning to shift from gripping with the neck to proper support - it becomes especially necessary to take this route if you are performing at the same time as you make this technical adjustment. When the body is shifting from using excess tension (compensatory muscle constriction) to using necessary tension (tensing the correct muscles), in order to sing reliably you will have to allow the two kinds of tension to temporarily overlap for a period of time. It will take loads of effort all over your body up and down just to produce the sound you want. But you should grow out of this in a few months.

When you're not performing or preparing to perform, you can afford to go through the vulnerable phase of having a lack of both excess and necessary tension in that middle point. I'm not a teacher and haven't seen other students go through this - but in my personal experience, I would probably argue that both approaches - relaxed and vulnerable low tension training, and tense and reliable high tension training, eventually helped carve the path to shift from "singing from the throat" to correct support.

Support is a combination of several movements so thinking of it simply as down and out etc. won't work. We're trying to get the diaphragm to stay down, the lower abs go in and up, the solar plexus bulges out but is an expansion tension not a contraction, the sides expand as if opposing being squeezed. I'm not sure what the back does cause I can't see it - I guess I try to think about it being flattened and a grounding anchor for the depth of the breath. CVT actually argues the back tries to tighten and curve - that may be correct as they are correct about a lot of things.

But all of that stuff doesn't make an ounce of sense until you are taught it by a teacher (which I know you have been) and practice it regularly (this may be your weak link)

Another thing is if you ever get sick, keep singing while sick, preferably perform - understand that you will have to support about double or triple the amount you usually do and dive in to that experience - it will improve your support a lot in a very natural way.

Also what Phil says - if you keep on trying even if it sounds bad you'll usually see benefits at the end. Don't shy away once one note sounds or feels wrong.

One last thing, has Phil talked to you about grounding? It's a way of breathing and thinking that's more of a holistic life concept but might help your singing too. I learned it today and it definitely helps in ways that seem relevant to you.

December 23, 2014
7:34 am
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Phil Moufarrege
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Jordan doesn't have these problems. HIs support is good when he does it right and his throat begins to relax. in fact he gets into the sweet spot and get that nice floating released sound relatively quickly if I'm there to walk him through it, he just needs to learn how to get out of his own way when he's by himself!! Kiss

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December 23, 2014
10:07 am
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DeffStarr
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I find it hard to find it all again.

I tried the hunch support the day after and it just wasn't working.

Would you mind holding my hand for this support tour phil lol?

December 27, 2014
1:09 pm
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daniel formica
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Jordan you just need to stop thinking about it. By pressing on your knees with your hands or pulling up on a chair while your sitting on it helps the cord closure it's and old trick for people with airy voice,paresis, etc. it will help some but I think you just need to breath and sing on that breath. Try doing a bunch of jumping jacks and push-up to get your breathing moving before you start singing. Or just work slow like you do when you are in a lesson. When you are in a lesson you take you time and warm up the whole range say going from 1-10 but at home you are probably just missing a few steps and jumping from 1-6.

December 27, 2014
6:47 pm
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DeffStarr
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That is very true Dan, I do tend to jump straight in at the deep end and don't spend time slowly warming up and getting anything started.

It generally is the case of jumping at 9-10 instead of starting at stage 1.

December 28, 2014
5:24 am
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OwenKorzec
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Jordan one thing that might help you is, a couple times a month, force yourself to perform a song you can only sing well when you're warmed up properly. By perform it doesn't need to be a huge gig just singing a full song at a set time of day in front of at least one person no stops no excuses.

Doing this over and over will teach you how much you have to really backtrack on your warm up regarding whether you start at 1 or 3 or 5 out of 10 of your full skill level and what pacing you can rely on to get you to 10 without rushing the process and tearing down your voice instead. And the more you do it try to make a point to rely less on Phil literally helping you and more on the intuition you've gained from studying with Phil helping you.

December 29, 2014
1:51 pm
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DeffStarr
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Going to try that Owen thanks :)

Side note, have you ever felt like you sometimes use your jaw to support? If that makes sense, just wanted to get an idea of how you tackled it if you did it. Like it locks up you feel it tensing.

December 29, 2014
4:15 pm
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OwenKorzec
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DeffStarr said

Going to try that Owen thanks :)

Side note, have you ever felt like you sometimes use your jaw to support? If that makes sense, just wanted to get an idea of how you tackled it if you did it. Like it locks up you feel it tensing

YES that is another issue.

Any excess tensions (the jaw is a key area) can take over and try to substitute for loss of efficient cord closure and/or correct support and that's never a good thing.

The staccato SLS-like exercise can help you monitor jaw tension. The reason why is that you are starting and stopping notes so you will feel the jaw tension kick in and release if you are over tensing the jaw. If you do the exercise properly you won't feel a noticeable change in jaw tension between the notes and the spaces between the notes it will feel like it's totally relaxed up there and your lower core support is doing the work. You also have to make sure your jaw tension is not kicking in between the notes as an attempt to prepare for the notes - even if it means sacrificing pitch and reliability to build freedom into the voice first. The pitch and reliability is then built back in through improved support, cord closure, and resonance

December 29, 2014
4:17 pm
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DeffStarr
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OwenKorzec said

DeffStarr said

Going to try that Owen thanks :)

Side note, have you ever felt like you sometimes use your jaw to support? If that makes sense, just wanted to get an idea of how you tackled it if you did it. Like it locks up you feel it tensing

YES that is another issue.

Any excess tensions (the jaw is a key area) can take over and try to substitute for loss of efficient cord closure and/or correct support and that's never a good thing.

The staccato SLS-like exercise can help you monitor jaw tension. The reason why is that you are starting and stopping notes so you will feel the jaw tension kick in and release if you are over tensing the jaw. If you do the exercise properly you won't feel a noticeable change in jaw tension between the notes and the spaces between the notes it will feel like it's totally relaxed up there and your lower core support is doing the work. You also have to make sure your jaw tension is not kicking in between the notes as an attempt to prepare for the notes - even if it means sacrificing pitch and reliability to build freedom into the voice first. The pitch and reliability is then built back in through improved support, cord closure, and resonance

Yeah I find a lot of jaw release from that exercise. I just find when trying to keep a held out a note I get jaw tension and much more neck tension :'(

Also, have you ever tried monitoring your larynx? Not directly manipulating with your fingers or pushing ir down with your tongue but just gently placing you finger on the larynx and making sure it only moves slightly (stable). I find it support a lot more, it's hard to describe. I just feel I support a lot more when I'm monitoring it.

December 29, 2014
5:12 pm
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OwenKorzec
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Do it if it works for you but for me my larynx works better and better the less I think of it directly and monitoring it with a finger it is about the closest you can get to directing your attention directly to the larynx, so it's one of the worst things I could have gotten caught up on in my training. But for you if you feel it helps you vocalize better go ahead and do it

December 29, 2014
7:20 pm
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Phil Moufarrege
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DeffStarr said

Going to try that Owen thanks :)

Side note, have you ever felt like you sometimes use your jaw to support? If that makes sense, just wanted to get an idea of how you tackled it if you did it. Like it locks up you feel it tensing.

yes I call that "grabbing the note with the jaw", tends to happen a lot when you are fearful of flipping so you try to grip and hold onto chest. At this stage in your training, If you take your time to warm up gently and smoothly and get out of your own way you will find the voice will just float out. You know what it feels like so just go for the feeling without worrying about how it sounds for the first 30 mins.

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