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Who the Heck Are Ya?
September 7, 2014
10:07 pm
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gerardo
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hahah excellent to see you here martin!!, i was just telling the other day to owen that it would be great to see you here!

and well i also havent introduced myself on this forum so,
im gerardo, geran from CVT and MV forums!, i study singing technique cause i wanna become a singer, also im glad to help -or debate hahah- if you want! Kiss !
as some of you may know, i passed through different methods -SS, KTVA, CVT etc-, but im not really 'loyal' to any one of those, i think every method has it's pros to help people improve their technique!

i recently was banned from MV forum, cause RL, the admin/owner didnt liked one of my comments about his flageolet split of the voice problem above F4, but it's okay, i just wanted to help and if he doesnt want to see the problem, the only person that will still have it will be him, not me xd
regards to everybody, and im glad to be part of a forum like this Laugh, and of course to keep being able to talk you guys, since i was banned this wasnt that possible hahah!

September 7, 2014
10:31 pm
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Doc Shangis
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Hey Singers!,

I'm Stan ...or Doc - whichever you prefer. I'm totally psyched to be part of this forum.
I sing mostly rock/metal but I enjoy listening to other singing styles just as much if not more.
I started singing a few years ago ...But eventually, got discouraged and became quite lazy and didn't bother continuing for various reasons. So yeah,
I haven't been practicing for as much and long as I should have, I'll admit.
I'm making an effort to get myself back into training though. I'm looking forward to learning from all you guys! :)

September 7, 2014
10:58 pm
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Phil Moufarrege
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gerardo said
i recently was banned from MV forum, cause RL, the admin/owner didnt liked one of my comments about his flageolet split of the voice problem above F4, but it's okay, i just wanted to help and if he doesnt want to see the problem, the only person that will still have it will be him, not me xd
regards to everybody, and im glad to be part of a forum like this Laugh, and of course to keep being able to talk you guys, since i was banned this wasnt that possible hahah!

Hi Geran. I was also banned too (no reason given, however I got Adolph to unban me.)
Robert indeed does not sing in full voice above the F4, no amount of cathedral reverb can hide it from my ears. It's a shame you were banned for simply pointing that out, however I'm not surprised.

Good to have you here. Feel free to post some of your singing in the "showcase yourself" section.

@PhilMoufarrege
Online Vocal Coach, Singer/Songwriter
Grow-The-Voice.com | PHILMOUFARREGE.com

September 8, 2014
8:47 am
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Felipe Carvalho
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Ahaha awesome portraits.

Geran hehe I missed that one, is that why some threads disappeared?

Felipe Carvalho
Singer and Voice Teacher in Brasil - São Paulo

September 8, 2014
9:52 am
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gerardo
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damn i had a problem and lost the big post i did to answer you both xd
but in short!, i dont know why is that of the threads, maybe it's something robert did, aside from also giving me a very useful and necessary -1 rep point just before banning me xd

also, i think the most delicated thing of the vocal coordination problem he has (which is going directly into whistle voice mechanism just after F4, and which takes years to fix, mainly training late bridge, like ken tamplin's method teaches), is that he cant stop everything he does to fix it, so he tries to hide it, so people will not wonder: what is he really teaching? is he teaching this same vocal coordination problem he has, that takes years to fix, to his students? and charging money for doing it??, its complicated xd

yeah the avatars are great xD

September 8, 2014
11:14 am
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OwenKorzec
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it's not whistle voice mechanism he goes into gerardo, I know because I used to imitate the way he would break out of full voice around that area, and I can make some squeaks in whistle register and pull that down, they are two completely different coordinations. What Robert does is a bit lighter than full voice and whistle voice is WAY lighter. he's only going to M2 not M3 in other words. But anyways, simply not being able to carry up full voice M1 and flipping to or being forced to bridge to M2 above the F4 is a problem as well and definitely not something you can fix easily while being a full time vocal teacher. He has made progress on it but not enough.

Used to make me confused as well. A lot of his students don't seem to follow after the vocal coordination problem he has and instead they shift their resonance correctly inside full voice/M1 instead (these are all the ones he boasts and posts about, also pretty much all of his certified instructors sing correctly this way!) but then some like Quentin and I had picked up on his vocal coordination habits and started singing too light. But as you say late bridging fixes that.

September 8, 2014
11:38 am
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OwenKorzec
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Doc Shangis said

Hey Singers!,

I'm Stan ...or Doc - whichever you prefer. I'm totally psyched to be part of this forum.
I sing mostly rock/metal but I enjoy listening to other singing styles just as much if not more.
I started singing a few years ago ...But eventually, got discouraged and became quite lazy and didn't bother continuing for various reasons. So yeah,
I haven't been practicing for as much and long as I should have, I'll admit.
I'm making an effort to get myself back into training though. I'm looking forward to learning from all you guys! :)

Just want to say something about this as I feel a similar way about drumming, my old main instrument that I don't practice as much anymore.

If your level of passion is lower, don't compare your practice habits to folks who are trying to become professionals at this lol! Of course you will practice less if you are less motivated to do much other than get back into the skill a bit. Don't feel guilty about it!

The key for people like you (and myself on drumming) is to work on resurrecting our enjoyment in the craft, and focus on simple acts of consistency first. And your definition of consistency may be different - I assume you're not into a daily practicing habit yet, so you could just start with, okay, did I get a quality singing session in once this week? If you have to start there that's fine. If that's good try twice a week, etc.

A lot of times finding the right music is helpful in regenerating passion - picking songs that aren't too difficult or too easy, but that are just enjoyable and something you can feel a desire to make a little progress on.

September 8, 2014
12:02 pm
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gerardo
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OwenKorzec said

it's not whistle voice mechanism he goes into gerardo, I know because I used to imitate the way he would break out of full voice around that area, and I can make some squeaks in whistle register and pull that down, they are two completely different coordinations. What Robert does is a bit lighter than full voice and whistle voice is WAY lighter. he's only going to M2 not M3 in other words. But anyways, simply not being able to carry up full voice M1 and flipping to or being forced to bridge to M2 above the F4 is a problem as well and definitely not something you can fix easily while being a full time vocal teacher. He has made progress on it but not enough.

Used to make me confused as well. A lot of his students don't seem to follow after the vocal coordination problem he has and instead they shift their resonance correctly inside full voice/M1 instead (these are all the ones he boasts and posts about, also pretty much all of his certified instructors sing correctly this way!) but then some like Quentin and I had picked up on his vocal coordination habits and started singing too light. But as you say late bridging fixes that.

exactly, training late bridging fixes it, but!, it has to be a completely different coordination (for that reason it's good start with a very heavy overdrive to break the habit of the split, then train medium, and softer volumes), the idea is to take up a coordination based more on the voice you use to speak, than the voice you use in the 5th and 6th octave, like brett manning says, 'you cant make a wrong coordination right', this is the case for the flageolet split of the voice, you cant gradually convert it into full voice, it cant grow like normal head voice/neutral without flageolet (i mentioned a bit of this to you the other day we talk), this is why: as you can do all the modes in flageolet, and also you can do all the modes in 'full voice', those 2 mechanisms are really 2 different voices we have, and the problem that causes the split on the voice is that the lower it is the note, the more different is the set of volumes of the modes comparing flageolet with full voice, for example and to be really specific/concrete: your curbing in flageolet at E4 is A LOT SOFTER than your curbing at E4 -same note, same mode- in fullvoice (causing a very unstable voice and breaks in transitions), but higher, your curbing at A4 in flageolet and your curbing at A4 in fullvoice have a similar volume, so the transition is smooth (this same thing occurs with a tenor around C5).
i understand what you say, the sensation of the whistle voice is not exactly the same, but the thing is, inside the very whistle voice (above C6), you can experience that there is another new coordination higher than whistle, above around B6, C7 (i cant go everyday to there but i have, and i have recordings! hahah), the sensation on the 6h octave and the 7th octave is different, you feel the 7th like is SUPER SUPER TINY, in comparison to the 6th, and the same occurs if you compare the 6th to the 5th octave, but the thing is, 5th, 6th and 7th are all in flageolet, and also we can use it lower, but having it as a paralel voice, not the same as your softer volume with the speaking mechanism Kiss

September 8, 2014
12:22 pm
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Felipe Carvalho
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Guys, there is a valid point in both posts but may I suggest debating it on a dedicated thread? ;)

Felipe Carvalho
Singer and Voice Teacher in Brasil - São Paulo

September 8, 2014
4:50 pm
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Jens
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Geran your definition of flageolet is way off, it does not work as you describe and lunte does not use the flageolet(whistlevoice tension) that causes the split.

In the cvt forum they corrected you of that but still you you use the same analogy...

http://completevocalinstitute......8;start=15

I'm just clarifying this is something you made up yourself, it's not cvt material or knowledge

September 8, 2014
5:42 pm
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OwenKorzec
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Felipe Carvalho said

Guys, there is a valid point in both posts but may I suggest debating it on a dedicated thread? ;)

Agreed. Apologies for the tangent

September 8, 2014
6:12 pm
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gerardo
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Jens said

Geran your definition of flageolet is way off, it does not work as you describe and lunte does not use the flageolet(whistlevoice tension) that causes the split.

In the cvt forum they corrected you of that but still you you use the same analogy...

http://completevocalinstitute......8;start=15

I'm just clarifying this is something you made up yourself, it's not cvt material or knowledge

jens, could you copy the exact paragraph or line of text in which i was corrected regards to the definition of flageolet i present here when talking about robert?
(instead of a bible of text xd)

also, it's clear that robert has a flageolet split above F4, you can hear it 100% of the time.

but yeah, we kinda should do another topic for this xd

September 8, 2014
7:39 pm
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Jens
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You can create a new thread if you want, but still your wrong a flageoletsplit sounds nothing of the sort of sounds robert does. You comfuse flageolet tension with neutral wich are diffrent things.
Flageolet is not a soundcolor, and if you have a flageoletsplit you entire voice breaks apart it doesnt go into mln(wich still can contain flagtension but not enough to create a split)

You comfuse flageolett with neutralsounds, with your typical falsetto/headsounds and thats not flageolett... You can sing perfectly fine in falsetto below high c and it wont create a split in you voice...

Just reread all posts by kaare, you need the refreshment. Listen to all the clips you sent and really reread and REALLY listen to what he writes.
Cause now your just spreadng alot of misinformation...

September 8, 2014
7:59 pm
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gerardo
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Jens said

You can create a new thread if you want, but still your wrong a flageoletsplit sounds nothing of the sort of sounds robert does. You comfuse flageolet tension with neutral wich are diffrent things.
Flageolet is not a soundcolor, and if you have a flageoletsplit you entire voice breaks apart it doesnt go into mln(wich still can contain flagtension but not enough to create a split)

You comfuse flageolett with neutralsounds, with your typical falsetto/headsounds and thats not flageolett... You can sing perfectly fine in falsetto below high c and it wont create a split in you voice...

Just reread all posts by kaare, you need the refreshment. Listen to all the clips you sent and really reread and REALLY listen to what he writes.
Cause now your just spreadng alot of misinformation...

you are asking me to really read but, did you read what i said here? xd
i didnt said flageolet sounds or is like neutral, i said you have 2 voices, flageolet and 'non-flageolet/full voice', the tag or word doesnt matter, what matters is what i already mentioned -and you didnt read- that is you can do all 4 modes in flageolet (neutral in flageolet, curbing in flageolet, overdrive in flageolet and edge in flageolet), and all 4 modes in full voice (neutral in fullvoice, curbing in fullvoice, overdrive in fullvoice and edge in fullvoice), and the lower the note, the more different is the volume from flageolet modes to fullvoice modes, so when doing a transition from fullvoice to flageolet in a low pitch (for example F4) a split occurs, your 2 voices fight eachother because of the big difference of volume, and on the other hand if the transition from fullvoice to flageolet is higher in pitch (for example A4-C5) the volume of your flageolet modes and fullvoice modes is closer so there isnt a split of the voice and the transition is smooth, i didnt said flageolet is like neutral jens xd you can use all modes in flageolet.
also what kaare adviced me regards to flageolet was that as im a baritone my A4 has a lot of volume when belted in flageolet, so it makes sense to leave my fullvoice belting there and change to flageolet belting, at A4 (and tenors would do this around C5 because there is the place/note in which their volume in fullvoice belting and flageolet belting matches, they can use enough volume on their flageolet, below that range the flageolet modes get too weak in volume in comparison to the fullvoice modes).

September 8, 2014
8:23 pm
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Jens
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As I said this is completely off, flageolet is not "the break" flageolet is not a "voice" it's a tension on your vocalfolds. Your right to some extent that flageolet can appear in all modes.
The break according to cvt is not about flageolet tension at all but a shift in modes... A split is something completely diffrent...

But sure flageolet could produce a break if your doing something weird with your voice however this is unusual. Also what you refer to as flageolet is simply your voice not sounding chesty.

September 8, 2014
8:37 pm
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gerardo
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Jens said

As I said this is completely off, flageolet is not "the break" flageolet is not a "voice" it's a tension on your vocalfolds. Your right to some extent that flageolet can appear in all modes.
The break according to cvt is not about flageolet tension at all but a shift in modes... A split is something completely diffrent...

But sure flageolet could produce a break if your doing something weird with your voice however this is unusual. Also what you refer to as flageolet is simply your voice not sounding chesty.

it's not about chestyness or headyness (those qualities are too general for this). but on the other hand, and despite you say my explanation is completely off, im seeing now that we agree in most of the points hahah, yeah, as you said this isnt the same as a break by going abruptly from belt to neutral (cause still both modes arent flageolet), the split of the voice is literally having 2 voices fighting eachother (flageolet and fullvoice) and it isnt a change of modes, cause you can go from curbing in fullvoice to curbing in flageolet (same mode), while going higher.
the thing is, if you do exactly that (curbing in fullvoice to curbing in flageolet) around F4, you will have problems because your curbing in flageolet has a volume that is really a lot softer (ON THIS RANGE) than your curbing in fullvoice, but if you do this exact thing around B4 you will experience no problems because curbing in flageolet obtains a lot of volume there and the coordinations can fuse together, not fight eachother Kiss

September 8, 2014
9:25 pm
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wabba_treads420
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Sorry to break up the debates, but is there a way to delete your own post?

September 8, 2014
9:28 pm
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wabba_treads420
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wabba_treads420 said

Sorry to break up the debates, but does anyone know a way to delete your own post?

Oh wonderful I accidentally quoted myself again...

September 8, 2014
9:36 pm
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TommyTheHat
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Hello!

One or two of you may know me...or maybe not. I was a member of TMV forum for awhile but deleted my account some time ago after watching Lunte have a meltdown after a critique of one of his song postings. My username there was Tommy

Anyway, I have been singing all my life...or at least close to 50 years of it. Hold on...don't get excited thinking that I must sing well or know what I'm doing. Laugh I just like to sing. And I'm learning like anyone else. Trying.

A few years ago...3? 4? I decided to get serious and try and learn something. That started with books, then the TMV forum, then private lessons, then about 2 years ago or more I hooked up with Felipe Carvalho and my singing just took off. The guy is top knotch. Lately I have been getting a little behind in my singing due to some personal issues but I still practice when I can. Luckily I have allot of down time on my job so that is when I use the computer and visit forums and such. My home life has become too busy for that.

I have a few video's out there where I collaborate with a harmonica player and we do old blues tunes. I'll post them in the music section. We are currently "TRYING" to get two more songs done but it's been a long time in the making since my time is extremely limited. My genre of choice is soul and R&B. Old stuff. Temptations, Wilson Picket, David Ruffin, Ray Charles etc. Those are my influences vocally also (Pickett, Ruffin, Charles, Redding and the like). But I also sing Blues. Unlike many others I'm not into hitting high notes and stuff like that. I like emotion and I like the deeper gritty tones. I don't aspire to sing like Steve Perry (although I admire him). I'd rather sing like David Ruffin or Wilson Pickett.

I'm not into technical terms. I understand all that stuff but I can't explain it. I just need to do it...not talk about it. lol. Ok...I'm rambling. I'll stop now.

I hope Felipe doesn't get angry that I mentioned he was my teacher. I truly owe him allot.

Thanks for reading and thanks in advance if you listen to my singing.

P.S. I have a soundcloud page but my recording skills absolutely suck. But that's ok. I don't care. The page isn't to showcase perfect recordings. I record songs as a way of practicing and working out phrasing and learning lyrics etc. Then I save them and put them up on Soundcloud so I can go back to them. They are a sort of "live" recording. No remixing (no mixing at all) just record, save and post. My equipment is lousy and I don't know how to use it anyway Laugh

Didn't I say I was shutting up??

Tommy

"It's not how many notes you know. It's what you do with them."

September 9, 2014
7:29 am
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Martin H
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@Geraldo

Instead of defining it as flageolet you should define it as M2 (vibratory mechanism 2). Then, mostly all of what you have observed is correct. And there will no longer be any confusion.

You are correct in your observation of how Robert Lunte often navigates through the "bridge", you're just using the wrong term. :)

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