it's not whistle voice mechanism he goes into gerardo, I know because I used to imitate the way he would break out of full voice around that area, and I can make some squeaks in whistle register and pull that down, they are two completely different coordinations. What Robert does is a bit lighter than full voice and whistle voice is WAY lighter. he's only going to M2 not M3 in other words. But anyways, simply not being able to carry up full voice M1 and flipping to or being forced to bridge to M2 above the F4 is a problem as well and definitely not something you can fix easily while being a full time vocal teacher. He has made progress on it but not enough.

Used to make me confused as well. A lot of his students don't seem to follow after the vocal coordination problem he has and instead they shift their resonance correctly inside full voice/M1 instead (these are all the ones he boasts and posts about, also pretty much all of his certified instructors sing correctly this way!) but then some like Quentin and I had picked up on his vocal coordination habits and started singing too light. But as you say late bridging fixes that.

OwenKorzec said

it's not whistle voice mechanism he goes into gerardo, I know because I used to imitate the way he would break out of full voice around that area, and I can make some squeaks in whistle register and pull that down, they are two completely different coordinations. What Robert does is a bit lighter than full voice and whistle voice is WAY lighter. he's only going to M2 not M3 in other words. But anyways, simply not being able to carry up full voice M1 and flipping to or being forced to bridge to M2 above the F4 is a problem as well and definitely not something you can fix easily while being a full time vocal teacher. He has made progress on it but not enough.

Used to make me confused as well. A lot of his students don't seem to follow after the vocal coordination problem he has and instead they shift their resonance correctly inside full voice/M1 instead (these are all the ones he boasts and posts about, also pretty much all of his certified instructors sing correctly this way!) but then some like Quentin and I had picked up on his vocal coordination habits and started singing too light. But as you say late bridging fixes that.

exactly, training late bridging fixes it, but!, it has to be a completely different coordination (for that reason it's good start with a very heavy overdrive to break the habit of the split, then train medium, and softer volumes), the idea is to take up a coordination based more on the voice you use to speak, than the voice you use in the 5th and 6th octave, like brett manning says, 'you cant make a wrong coordination right', this is the case for the flageolet split of the voice, you cant gradually convert it into full voice, it cant grow like normal head voice/neutral without flageolet (i mentioned a bit of this to you the other day we talk), this is why: as you can do all the modes in flageolet, and also you can do all the modes in 'full voice', those 2 mechanisms are really 2 different voices we have, and the problem that causes the split on the voice is that the lower it is the note, the more different is the set of volumes of the modes comparing flageolet with full voice, for example and to be really specific/concrete: your curbing in flageolet at E4 is A LOT SOFTER than your curbing at E4 -same note, same mode- in fullvoice (causing a very unstable voice and breaks in transitions), but higher, your curbing at A4 in flageolet and your curbing at A4 in fullvoice have a similar volume, so the transition is smooth (this same thing occurs with a tenor around C5).
i understand what you say, the sensation of the whistle voice is not exactly the same, but the thing is, inside the very whistle voice (above C6), you can experience that there is another new coordination higher than whistle, above around B6, C7 (i cant go everyday to there but i have, and i have recordings! hahah), the sensation on the 6h octave and the 7th octave is different, you feel the 7th like is SUPER SUPER TINY, in comparison to the 6th, and the same occurs if you compare the 6th to the 5th octave, but the thing is, 5th, 6th and 7th are all in flageolet, and also we can use it lower, but having it as a paralel voice, not the same as your softer volume with the speaking mechanism

Geran your definition of flageolet is way off, it does not work as you describe and lunte does not use the flageolet(whistlevoice tension) that causes the split.

In the cvt forum they corrected you of that but still you you use the same analogy...

http://completevocalinstitute......8;start=15

I'm just clarifying this is something you made up yourself, it's not cvt material or knowledge

Jens said

Geran your definition of flageolet is way off, it does not work as you describe and lunte does not use the flageolet(whistlevoice tension) that causes the split.

In the cvt forum they corrected you of that but still you you use the same analogy...

http://completevocalinstitute......8;start=15

I'm just clarifying this is something you made up yourself, it's not cvt material or knowledge

jens, could you copy the exact paragraph or line of text in which i was corrected regards to the definition of flageolet i present here when talking about robert?
(instead of a bible of text xd)

also, it's clear that robert has a flageolet split above F4, you can hear it 100% of the time.

but yeah, we kinda should do another topic for this xd

Jens said

You can create a new thread if you want, but still your wrong a flageoletsplit sounds nothing of the sort of sounds robert does. You comfuse flageolet tension with neutral wich are diffrent things.
Flageolet is not a soundcolor, and if you have a flageoletsplit you entire voice breaks apart it doesnt go into mln(wich still can contain flagtension but not enough to create a split)

You comfuse flageolett with neutralsounds, with your typical falsetto/headsounds and thats not flageolett... You can sing perfectly fine in falsetto below high c and it wont create a split in you voice...

Just reread all posts by kaare, you need the refreshment. Listen to all the clips you sent and really reread and REALLY listen to what he writes.
Cause now your just spreadng alot of misinformation...

you are asking me to really read but, did you read what i said here? xd
i didnt said flageolet sounds or is like neutral, i said you have 2 voices, flageolet and 'non-flageolet/full voice', the tag or word doesnt matter, what matters is what i already mentioned -and you didnt read- that is you can do all 4 modes in flageolet (neutral in flageolet, curbing in flageolet, overdrive in flageolet and edge in flageolet), and all 4 modes in full voice (neutral in fullvoice, curbing in fullvoice, overdrive in fullvoice and edge in fullvoice), and the lower the note, the more different is the volume from flageolet modes to fullvoice modes, so when doing a transition from fullvoice to flageolet in a low pitch (for example F4) a split occurs, your 2 voices fight eachother because of the big difference of volume, and on the other hand if the transition from fullvoice to flageolet is higher in pitch (for example A4-C5) the volume of your flageolet modes and fullvoice modes is closer so there isnt a split of the voice and the transition is smooth, i didnt said flageolet is like neutral jens xd you can use all modes in flageolet.
also what kaare adviced me regards to flageolet was that as im a baritone my A4 has a lot of volume when belted in flageolet, so it makes sense to leave my fullvoice belting there and change to flageolet belting, at A4 (and tenors would do this around C5 because there is the place/note in which their volume in fullvoice belting and flageolet belting matches, they can use enough volume on their flageolet, below that range the flageolet modes get too weak in volume in comparison to the fullvoice modes).

Jens said

As I said this is completely off, flageolet is not "the break" flageolet is not a "voice" it's a tension on your vocalfolds. Your right to some extent that flageolet can appear in all modes.
The break according to cvt is not about flageolet tension at all but a shift in modes... A split is something completely diffrent...

But sure flageolet could produce a break if your doing something weird with your voice however this is unusual. Also what you refer to as flageolet is simply your voice not sounding chesty.

it's not about chestyness or headyness (those qualities are too general for this). but on the other hand, and despite you say my explanation is completely off, im seeing now that we agree in most of the points hahah, yeah, as you said this isnt the same as a break by going abruptly from belt to neutral (cause still both modes arent flageolet), the split of the voice is literally having 2 voices fighting eachother (flageolet and fullvoice) and it isnt a change of modes, cause you can go from curbing in fullvoice to curbing in flageolet (same mode), while going higher.
the thing is, if you do exactly that (curbing in fullvoice to curbing in flageolet) around F4, you will have problems because your curbing in flageolet has a volume that is really a lot softer (ON THIS RANGE) than your curbing in fullvoice, but if you do this exact thing around B4 you will experience no problems because curbing in flageolet obtains a lot of volume there and the coordinations can fuse together, not fight eachother

wabba_treads420 said

Sorry to break up the debates, but does anyone know a way to delete your own post?

Oh wonderful I accidentally quoted myself again...

@Geraldo

Instead of defining it as flageolet you should define it as M2 (vibratory mechanism 2). Then, mostly all of what you have observed is correct. And there will no longer be any confusion.

You are correct in your observation of how Robert Lunte often navigates through the "bridge", you're just using the wrong term.