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Full head voice before A4 : my thoughts about the potential and shortcomings of this way of singing
September 29, 2014
7:41 am
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Phil Moufarrege
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Singing Success throws around this phrASE "light is right". I would just like to improve on it by saying RIGHT IS RIGHT

If practicing lightly gets you to make the right sound then it's good.
If practicing heavily gets you to make the right sound then it's good.
If practicing lightly gets you to make the wrong sound then it's bad.
if practicing heavily gets you to make the wrong sound then it's bad.

It isn't about light or heavy. It's about right. Depending on the individual and the problem in their development they will need to adjust certain things to create the right sound. Once the right sound is created repetetively the voice grows.

Right is right.
Wrong is wrong.

@PhilMoufarrege
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September 29, 2014
8:21 am
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gerardo
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Phil Moufarrege said

Singing Success throws around this phrASE "light is right". I would just like to improve on it by saying RIGHT IS RIGHT

If practicing lightly gets you to make the right sound then it's good.
If practicing heavily gets you to make the right sound then it's good.
If practicing lightly gets you to make the wrong sound then it's bad.
if practicing heavily gets you to make the wrong sound then it's bad.

It isn't about light or heavy. It's about right. Depending on the individual and the problem in their development they will need to adjust certain things to create the right sound. Once the right sound is created repetetively the voice grows.

Right is right.
Wrong is wrong.

i agree but i would say the 'right coordination' instead of right sound, as constrictions cant always be heard! Kiss

September 30, 2014
1:30 am
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Phil Moufarrege
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Good point Gerardo, although I would say that if we are not in the right coordination then we are not in the right sound (even if it sounds good) :P

By the way Quentin, check out that video I made on how to belt high notes because during the intro I demonstrate the exact same disconnected sound that you have been talking about. All I'm doing to get that sound is going to falsetto but just smoothing out the break to do it.

Skip to 0:57 to hear the difference between that sound vs my full voice connected sound. This isn't to say you cannot use that light sound stylistically, but to say that it will develop your full voice or to say that it will "trick" people into thinking you are singing in full voice is false.

I will say this though: When I first learned how to sing, I found that disconnected sound useful to learn how to get rid of the break on that light level before I learned how to add the weight and get a connected sound because when I tried to just use a connected sound all I wanted to do was strain from the throat. So for people like that it can help them to learn how to not strain as they shift. But it is not a connected full voice.

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September 30, 2014
9:22 am
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gerardo
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Felipe Carvalho said

Ive made a quick video trying to explain, don´t know if it´s clear as I intended it, let me know!

I´m using the more common terms so that others can understand too ;)

felipe i was thinking about your video last night (but i couldnt ask you anything because i dont have internet in my home currently xd), the thing is, your video is amazing and i feel that it's really possible that when you are using falsetto, it is what i call flageolet!
so i wanted to ask you if you could do your falsetto in a note like G4 and then do a crescendo from your falsetto > head voice > belting,
what do you think? is this possible? I KNOW that just 'head voice > to belting', is logical and easy, but what happens if you do the same starting on the falsetto you demonstrated on your video?, you get stuck on the bee gees voice, or you can do the crescendo to head and belt from that point?
thanks! Laugh

September 30, 2014
8:47 pm
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Phil Moufarrege
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gerardo said

Felipe Carvalho said

Ive made a quick video trying to explain, don´t know if it´s clear as I intended it, let me know!

I´m using the more common terms so that others can understand too ;)

felipe i was thinking about your video last night (but i couldnt ask you anything because i dont have internet in my home currently xd), the thing is, your video is amazing and i feel that it's really possible that when you are using falsetto, it is what i call flageolet!
so i wanted to ask you if you could do your falsetto in a note like G4 and then do a crescendo from your falsetto > head voice > belting,
what do you think? is this possible? I KNOW that just 'head voice > to belting', is logical and easy, but what happens if you do the same starting on the falsetto you demonstrated on your video?, you get stuck on the bee gees voice, or you can do the crescendo to head and belt from that point?
thanks! Laugh

You will get stuck if you try to swell the falsetto and switch to chest too late in the swell. What you can do though is start on falsetto and then before you raise the volume you "grab it" with your chest. It will sound exactly like falsetto but it will be in a "different gear" (your support will be under it) then you can swell that volume to full voice or belting. I was taking a lot of people through mezza di voce yesterday through songs maybe I can post something up for you, give me some time to edit into a small clip.

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October 2, 2014
6:35 am
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quentin
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Phil Moufarrege said

Good point Gerardo, although I would say that if we are not in the right coordination then we are not in the right sound (even if it sounds good) :P

By the way Quentin, check out that video I made on how to belt high notes because during the intro I demonstrate the exact same disconnected sound that you have been talking about. All I'm doing to get that sound is going to falsetto but just smoothing out the break to do it.

Skip to 0:57 to hear the difference between that sound vs my full voice connected sound. This isn't to say you cannot use that light sound stylistically, but to say that it will develop your full voice or to say that it will "trick" people into thinking you are singing in full voice is false.

I will say this though: When I first learned how to sing, I found that disconnected sound useful to learn how to get rid of the break on that light level before I learned how to add the weight and get a connected sound because when I tried to just use a connected sound all I wanted to do was strain from the throat. So for people like that it can help them to learn how to not strain as they shift. But it is not a connected full voice.

Phil, thanks for the video. The 1.23 min in the vid made my day :-)

October 2, 2014
2:30 pm
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gerardo
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@phil, that makes perfect sense!, i have experienced this when practicing pianissimo and going up, the sound is really almost the same as falsetto, but the coordination I KNOW is 'chest', or to say it in other words, is the coordination i can use to do a crescendo to my regular belting modes, and is perfectly connected IN SENSATION (its not just that i can disguise connection from high to low, the sensation is exactly the same) with my lower speaking notes!
i guess this means im on the right track on this point, also, i think it's really interesting the concept of 'grabing' the coordination with the chest muscles, when we are on pure falsetto -i guess flageolet- and then we can turn it into pianissimo chest -the sound is pretty much the same as falsetto but the sensation/coordination is not-, and start the crescendo to full voice!
thanks for your help Laugh

October 2, 2014
3:47 pm
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Felipe Carvalho
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Thanks for the words guys.

Yes geran, that's the idea. If you do the pianissimo on falsetto, you will need to enter in your normal voice to continue to higher intensity, or else you will be stuck on the Bee Gee's voice. Just like Phil said.

In my opinion, it's easier to do everything in your normal voice on that range, so that you don't have to deal with this change. But you can do it both ways, and there is interpretative value on controling both.

However, the video was more about the definition of head voice as something appart from these changes. Was that part also clear?

Felipe Carvalho
Singer and Voice Teacher in Brasil - São Paulo

October 2, 2014
9:55 pm
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Phil Moufarrege
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gerardo said

@phil, that makes perfect sense!, i have experienced this when practicing pianissimo and going up, the sound is really almost the same as falsetto, but the coordination I KNOW is 'chest', or to say it in other words, is the coordination i can use to do a crescendo to my regular belting modes, and is perfectly connected IN SENSATION (its not just that i can disguise connection from high to low, the sensation is exactly the same) with my lower speaking notes!
i guess this means im on the right track on this point, also, i think it's really interesting the concept of 'grabing' the coordination with the chest muscles, when we are on pure falsetto -i guess flageolet- and then we can turn it into pianissimo chest -the sound is pretty much the same as falsetto but the sensation/coordination is not-, and start the crescendo to full voice!
thanks for your help Laugh

That's it bro! sounds like you're doing well!

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November 26, 2014
4:36 am
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Justin Chew
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ODn9q-qoqw&list=PLnTJb2lmmne8dq8IGLtV8jlgOQsF3VvaM&spfreload=1

This guy trained under Robert Lunte and he is quite belty and chesty. This shows that Rob does not necessarily teach bridging early only. However, KTVA is better

November 26, 2014
6:33 am
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Phil Moufarrege
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Robert was not responsible for building Sergio's voice. He was already a good singer who wished to become certified in TVS to gain more exposure as a coach. Many aspiring coaches do this.
This is the same reason why many coaches get certified by Brett Manning then leave. They get exposure then leave to teach their own philosophies on the voice.

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November 30, 2014
4:31 pm
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quentin
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Oh i didn't see these last posts. Justin, i was there when Sergio was singing this song and being filmed doing so. What Phil is saying is true. Sergio, besides from being a TVS instructor, has his own method, called Voicepower. I guess becoming a TVS instructor is a win-win exchange : Sergio has the opportunity to get more known as a teacher and Robert benefits from having great teachers and vocalists supporting his method.

Thats why i featured Randy in my first post. He is the one i am certain who trained with Rob from scratch and who has an amazing voice. I cannot find other featured coaches/TVS students who trained from the very beginning with TVS. What Sergio is doing in this clip, in my opinion isn't really the sound you get from TVS, there is too much chest in the sound, and requires a very solid support.

November 30, 2014
4:43 pm
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quentin
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I should add that the very idea of "bridging early/late" does not make any sense. When i read TVS is aimed at bridging early and KTVA bridging late, i think that kind of comparison misses the point. If you think you have to "bridge", then it means most of the time that you have picked up the wrong coordinations. I think the idea of bridging is itself a result of the assumption that singing is a tricky art where at some point you are compelled to switch to full M2. Then you have to make the illusion that you are still in M1... If you have learnt to grow the voice properly, there is no illusion to make, because you are still bringing chest musculature and can gradually lean in head resonance.

November 30, 2014
8:13 pm
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Phil Moufarrege
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quentin said

I should add that the very idea of "bridging early/late" does not make any sense. When i read TVS is aimed at bridging early and KTVA bridging late, i think that kind of comparison misses the point. If you think you have to "bridge", then it means most of the time that you have picked up the wrong coordinations. I think the idea of bridging is itself a result of the assumption that singing is a tricky art where at some point you are compelled to switch to full M2. Then you have to make the illusion that you are still in M1... If you have learnt to grow the voice properly, there is no illusion to make, because you are still bringing chest musculature and can gradually lean in head resonance.

Really well said Quentin. Dan Formica made a great post awhile back about how you don't really bridge, instead there are "bridges". It is spot on...basically there are "areas" where resonance needs to shift and that's really all this "bridge" is! the trickiest one for most males is F4 so people tend to call that "the bridge" when really as you know that as you get better A#4 can be quite tricky for many males also to get past as there is another shift they have to make.

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December 1, 2014
5:21 am
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Mivke
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Even though I understand the last two posts here I must also respectfully disagree :)

quentin said
I should add that the very idea of "bridging early/late" does not make any sense.

To the last part of your sentence I would add, "does not make sense for me". Since for alot of people bridging still feels very relevant even when doing it correctly. Saying bridging does not always mean bridge to falsetto/unsupported headvoice/call it whatever. For me for example bridging is still something I feel very "real", but I bridge to a headvcoie many people would call chest.

As I said, I do understand and agree with the points being made, just be cautios of how you say it or we will be going in circles with the definitions forever :)

Cheers!

December 1, 2014
1:12 pm
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quentin
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Mivke said

Even though I understand the last two posts here I must also respectfully disagree :)

quentin said
I should add that the very idea of "bridging early/late" does not make any sense.

To the last part of your sentence I would add, "does not make sense for me". Since for alot of people bridging still feels very relevant even when doing it correctly. Saying bridging does not always mean bridge to falsetto/unsupported headvoice/call it whatever. For me for example bridging is still something I feel very "real", but I bridge to a headvcoie many people would call chest.

As I said, I do understand and agree with the points being made, just be cautios of how you say it or we will be going in circles with the definitions forever :)

Cheers!

Mivke,

Point noted.
Yeah, all in all, it is how people interpret things, so it sounds a bit like enforcing my own interpretation. But the very word "bridge" seems to indicate that there is a break somewhere, instead of thinking about one continuous voice that you have, for instance, to thin out when you raise in pitch. Owen seemed to pick on the same pattern, and it has led both of us to a host of vocal issues.
But if it makes sense to you, it shows how interprétations can vary from people to people.

December 1, 2014
8:33 pm
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Phil Moufarrege
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Mivke said

Even though I understand the last two posts here I must also respectfully disagree :)

quentin said
I should add that the very idea of "bridging early/late" does not make any sense.

To the last part of your sentence I would add, "does not make sense for me". Since for alot of people bridging still feels very relevant even when doing it correctly. Saying bridging does not always mean bridge to falsetto/unsupported headvoice/call it whatever. For me for example bridging is still something I feel very "real", but I bridge to a headvcoie many people would call chest.

As I said, I do understand and agree with the points being made, just be cautios of how you say it or we will be going in circles with the definitions forever :)

Cheers!

well said Mivke. the key is that when you "bridge" you are still in full voice.

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December 1, 2014
9:27 pm
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OwenKorzec
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I will add this though:

The break below A4 that Quentin and Rob and I have experienced in the past (I am still working on fixing it now), is a very real thing and no magic pill is going to remove the problem overnight. I still have the problem it's just higher up and less severe - more around the A4/A#4 and it's simply an unstable shift from chesty mix to heady mix where you feel some kind of closure shed off a bit. There's a long slow process of moving this sort of shedding-off of body up to happen at a higher pitch where the similarities of the registers allow it to be done so much more smoothly that it won't be heard or felt as a break.

Martin mentioned in TMV once how depending on the individual, most males need to transition from M1 to M2 between the A4 and C5. Or else if they try to do it below that (what many TVS folks including Rob have tried to do) it becomes more and more difficult to do smoothly the lower the pitch.

UNLESS you decrease the volume proportionally to the earlier bridge as I think transitioning M1 to M2 also gets easier the quieter is done.

All of this vice versa from M2 to M1 as well.

So that is my current understanding of what is actually happening underneath the WRONG interpretation of bridging, but the realities behind what it really is and how to implement it. It's just attaching the wrong term to something that does exist. But for powerful singing this transition happens so high that it's no longer a transition anymore so then it should ultimately not even seem to exist anymore (only those fancy EGG graphs will pick it up).

The correct bridging is those resonant shifts Mivke mentioned and is a relatively separate thing.

December 2, 2014
4:14 am
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Phil Moufarrege
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I think you've all made great points, and are really talking the same thing I think, just explaining differently to each other.
There will always be confusion in text, so if you guys wanna make your point really clearly just put up an audio file Laugh

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December 2, 2014
10:14 am
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Mivke
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Indeed, audio > text :)

By the way, what I was saying is how I relate to bridging NOW. I too have had a struggle for nearly all my life with the g#4 being my highest screamed note. Had I heard bridging then I would say 99% I would have interpreted it like so many other in that you fall out of full voice. It was not until I actually imitated this guy

that I even phonated anything above that. Actually, quite soon after that I found the TMW-forum and now about 2.5 years later, here I am. :)

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